Wednesday, December 06, 2006

dutch

"It's the same thing with the feminists. You know, they want everything to be equal... everything! But when the check comes, where are they?" - George Costanza

The word of the day that we were discussing in my office the other day was, "dutch," as in going on a dutch date. Apparently, the term was originally a means for the English to denigrate the Dutch in a time when they were in competition for the same resources.

This got me interested. How many people have actually gone dutch? I've never gone on a dutch date. Not that I've dated much. No one in my office admitted to it, either, though. This leads to more questions. Arbitrary cultural norms tend to get me thinking like this.

I think I should make it clear that I am not here to agree with George, but rather understand what other people think about the man paying for the events in the relationship. I am certainly not trying to make a point with this post. This is one topic that I simply know very little about how people feel.

I wonder how many men feel they have to be the one to pay to prove their manhood. I wonder how many men feel they have to be the one to pay because that is what society says. I wonder how many women would be offended if the man decided he wanted to go dutch. I wonder how many men would be offended if the woman insisted on the date being dutch.

I wonder who initially determined that the man pays for the date. When the date was invented, did the man decide to pay because he wanted to prove that he had wealth? Did the woman decide the man would pay because she wanted him to prove that he had wealth?

When Golden and I were dating neither of us had too much money, but I did pay for most of the dates. I would probably have been a little bothered if I wasn't paying, but I do remember wondering if the guy didn't somehow get the short end of the stick. I didn't complain too much, though, since we both liked McDonalds.

When Golden did pay for the date (specifically Spring Fling at school, which was like a Sadie Hawkins event) she would typically hand me the money so that restaurant workers wouldn't think that she was paying. I think she did that to save my ego, which was very sweet.

I can see many positives and many negatives in this setup of the man paying. One of the huge negatives is that guys who have little or no money might be limited in their dating options. I strongly considered not dating at all in my first year at college to save what money I had when I first got there. A lot of girls at school liked to complain that guys there didn't bother asking girls out, but I don't think they understood the impact finances may have played in that situation.

The positives are mostly centered around the fact that men are going to be more likely to have the need to provide financially, so paying could meet that need. God must have put it there for some reason.

What do you think? Do you like the current setup or hate it? Am I approaching this like a male chauvinist? Is there anything that says, "I love you," more than covering the entire cost of a cheeseburger value meal?

13 comments:

shakedust said...

Someone at work just informed me that going dutch doesn't count as a date. Anyone agree/disagree with that?

Anonymous said...

I always assumed that when people went dutch on "dates" it was more as a casual friendship kind of thing.

I went out on "dutch dates" and dates that should have been dutch. The only guy I paid for on dates is dash! :) I'll let him elaborate, if he wishes! ;)

shakedust said...

I would be interested in an elaboration. :)

Achtung BB said...

I think going dutch can be counted as a date. Most of the first dates that I have been on, end up being dutch, but by the second or third, I'm paying if the relationship is going anywhere

Anonymous said...

When I take my girl out, I want to be the one who picks up the tab at the end of the night. I couldn't really tell you why, though. Maybe it is socio-psychological conditioning for me to prove that I can take care of things financially. But I don't mind.

Dash said...

I'm not sure that social commentary from Seinfeld alumns is a safe reference right now.

...as for the paying thing: I was an incredibly poor college student at the time and T was a worldly employeed off-campus career professional and her truck actually ran.

However, I more then caught up with her once my shiny new discover card came in.

Anonymous said...

You need to read Wild at Heart and get in the spirit.

f o r r e s t said...

You guys really didn't date much, did you?

If you ask someone out on a date, you are asking to take them out - your responsibility...you should pay. That is common courtesy. And this common courtesy should be applied across the table to anyone. I will meet with an old school friend of mine for lunch once or twice a year and if I set it up, I'll pay and if he sets it up, he pays.

I had never heard of anybody going on a "dutch" date. Maybe that is a Christian thing, but then it is not really a date, is it?

Once a couple, begins an official relationship then dating becomes 'going out' and each person is understanding of the others financial conditions. In order to go out, they use any means necessary to spend time together-he pays, she pays or go dutch.

Asking a person out on a date is about you being responsible for the activities. If your excuse is limited funds, then you are not that creative at planning an evening. Every college kid was on limited funds, and there were many ways to spend an evening with someone that cost very little money, if any.

shakedust said...

Forrest, I think that a lot of college kids were on limited funds, but not all were extremely limited. I think the guys who were the most limited dated less (on average).

This isn't a "Christian" thing, for sure. I think more Christian kids are more likely to be traditional, and therefore believe the guy is responsible for everything.

Just so I have a better understanding of your perspective, can you let me know what specifically you would have done in the following scenario? If, while you were dating, Verna said that it would be nice to go to a movie and you didn't have enough money in your wallet, what specifically would you have done? I think that different people would handle that sort of situation very differently.

f o r r e s t said...

I thought I already addressed that in my comments. See the paragraph about "once a couple starts an official relationship..."

"I think the guys who were the most limited dated less (on average)."
-this is probably more true than you know and it has nothing to do with money.

It's only dating - don't overthink it.

Anonymous said...

Von Dutch

Anonymous said...

I guess my name give away my opinions... :)

I have been married for over 6 years. Yes, I consider myself a feminist, which means that I do not assume the man will pay for things all the time.

My hubby has NO problem with me paying for things/meals/bills. He pays sometimes, I pay sometimes. It was like that when we were dating, too. (As a side note, we have separate accounts, no joint accounts)

Personally, I think our culture has taught our boys that they must carry the burden of "providing for" women/families. I think that's an awfully heavy burden and it's not fair to men to assume they ALWAYS want to.

Just my thoughts... maybe a couple of weeks late. :)

shakedust said...

Thanks for your perspective!

My wife and I have joint accounts, so the point is really moot for us any more. I am intrigued at the setup, though, because it is very entrenched in society.

I don't know that this can be blamed on or credited to (depending on your perspective) just our specific culture because I think most cultures throughout history have had this bent as well.

I think that a lot of men and women get specific emotional needs met by the current system. I'm sure part of this is nature and part is nurture, but how much is always up for debate.